Raw foods for your pet

Here's an interesting article about feeding raw foods or supplementing with raw food treats. What do you think? I can't do all raw foods, but I've noticed lately that my 1 yo dog seems to be starving. He just recently started flipping his bowl around several times a day. I started giving him some carrots or beans. I might add some nuts now, or a little berries. One thing I noticed is that she only gave 3 foods that are not good for pets, but didn't include chocolate.

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2009/10/10/Can-Human-Food-Be-Beneficial-for-Your-Pet.aspx

Forgive the novel. Sorry for the long post.

She left out a lot, I feel. There are many foods which are toxic to dogs and should not be fed. Research before feeding. I’ll see if I can find my list or a link and post as well.

Many people do feed a “veggie mash” as part of their dog’s diet. It’s a personal preference, really. For years we’ve always been preached to about the benefits of fresh veggies in our (human) diets. Not necessary for the dogs but in moderation it doesn’t hurt them either when fed in a manner that will not upset vitamin ratios. Veggies have their own vitamin/nutritional content. Too much is not always a good thing. That said, it's hard to overdo unless you have a glut of something and are feeding that mostly exclusively.

One thing that she does leave out is that it must be fed in mash/puree form. Otherwise, the dogs get no benefit as they don’t digest it all properly. Some veggies will come out just as whole as it went in short of the limited chewing by the dogs. Kind of like corn in humans. If not chewed thoroughly it comes out just as whole and undigested as it went in.

I do not feed a veggie mash as I don’t see where the dog needs it, other than green tripe which I do feed as it has digestive enzymes in it. (Cleaned tripe from the store is of no benefit as it holds no nutritional value. It must be green tripe.) I do give her the occasional leftover carrot or piece of celery, eggshells and eggs on ocassion, (no onions and the like), 100% pure canned pumpkin (not the pie mix which has spices) and such but it’s not a regular part of her diet. I also don’t feed any nuts. Cashews are also toxic as are several other kinds of nuts.

I agree with her that zero grains/carbohydrates are a must. There is no need for them at all in a canine or feline raw diet and it does more harm than good.

I strongly disagree with her that it’s more expensive to feed raw than to feed commercial kibble foods. This month I purchased 40 lbs. chicken backs, 60 lbs. of beef heart and 10 lbs. of beef liver. The heart will feed her her muscle meat portion for almost 3 months. The liver, just about 3 1/2 months. The chicken backs, one month. My totals work out to be about $38.00-$40.00 per month – less in fact than feeding a quality commercial kibble. The backs are often substituted with turkey neck bones, pork neckbones, whole rabbits (including organs, cut up at home), or I’ll get whole turkey on sale and cut that up for meals. Leg quarters in lieu of both backs and heart as they are an almost perfect RMB/MM combination and are also cheap. (About $0.65/lb where I buy.) The inexpensive combinations are endless and can be obtained from wholesalers and private processing butchers and local hunters. NOTE: Never feed load-bearing bones as the RMB's. They are too hard and can break teeth. No leg bones at all from beef, deer, swine, sheep, etc. It's ok with rabbit and chicken as they are small, but not with large animals..

The savings in vet bills I do agree with and have experienced that for years now. Giza does get Vit. E and Fish oil once a day, and a multi-vitamin until she’s about 2 ½ - 3 years old. (That’s just something I’ve always done but she gets plenty of vitamins from the variety of meats.)

The combination of the more inexpensive diet and lack of vet bills make all the difference in the world. She goes for baseline bloodwork once a year. She had her vaccinations. She has not needed a vet other than that at all, as was the same with my previous dogs on the raw diet. Vet's don't particulatly like it when they don't make any money. Costs money to operate their business. Their resistance to a raw diet doesn't surprise me at all. Lack of knowledge and lack of money.

I also agree that the commercial foods (especially after seeing how they are made and what goes in them) are a leading cause of illness (skin, allergies and other various diseases) in pets. It’s an improper diet. We would be ill too on an inappropriate (fast food) diet.

Vet’s get minimal nutritional training and depend upon the producers of commercial feeds to “feed” their knowledge of “nutrition”. Basically, they take the manufacturer’s word for the quality and then sell it, at a commission, from their offices.

If he’s still acting like he’s starving are you sure you’re feeding enough on the raw-feeding days? He should be getting 1%-5% of his estimated adult weight (weight at maturity, not current weight) depending upon his age and activity level. For instance, Giza is 2 years, moderately active, and I estimate she should be about 60 lbs. at ideal, mature weight for her breed/gender. She gets 3% of her body weight estimate per day. That works out to 28.80 oz. 60% of that is RMB’s (backs, necks, etc.), 35% is Muscle Meat (such as heart) and 5% is Organ Meat (liver, kidney, etc.). No veggie mash. She does not bang her bowl around except as she decides to annoy me when crated and she wants out. Attention getting.

If you wanted to feed a veggie mash you could cut back the Muscle Meat by 2% or the Organ meat by 2% but to keep a good stool balance you really need to keep the Meat to Bone ratio as close as possible. Runs (dehydration) or constipation can result if these are fed too far out of good proportion. You could also determine 2%-3% of his ideal estimated weight at maturity and feed that in the form of "veggie mash" in addition to the above given ratios as a "filler" of sorts. So, it would come out to 102% or 103% of his ideal weight at maturity. Just a bit more food but watch closeley for stool issues and weight issues and don't go overboard. (I doubt you'll see weight issues.)

Above all, look at your dog. Is he of good weight? No hanging tuck? Trim and solid topline with good muscle tone? If so then he’s probably getting enough. If he’s a little thin one month, increase his percentage by 1% and check him again the following month. Growing pups do need a bit more and he’s still only a year old. If he gets a bit too heavy, decrease by ½ of 1%. It takes very little on the adjustment scale usually.

One other thing...

The other thing she does not discuss at all is the importance of variety of meats as pertains their vitamin/nutrient values each and the importance of that balance in a dog's diet and the balance of the RMB to MM to OM ratio.

It's not balance every meal with raw feeding, of course, but balance over time as regards nutrition and balance over a few meals at a time as regards RMB's/MM/OM.

I felt her site was severely lacking in important information and only barely touched on something that maybe she's just newly discovered herself and hasn't experienced/explored completely yet? A kind of a "jump on the bandwagon" enterprise? Misinformation and incomplete information can be more harmful than beneficial.

I'm glad she's excited about raw feeding but there's a right and wrong way about it. I think she has more learning to do.

I actually have not fed a raw diet. Haven't looked into it. Maybe I should. I have been feeding the Nutro Natural Choice (chicken meal, rice and oatmeal type). He gets 2 cups a day and had been fine with that, until recently when he's been banging his bowl around a lot! The vet said not to feed him more dog food, but supplement with some veggies. So I've been giving him a raw carrot occasionally, or some thawed green beans etc. Where do you pick up all that raw meat for your dog so cheaply? We go through 1 (35 lb) bag of the Nutro every 4 months. So it works out to $10.75 a month, without coupons. I'm not sure how much it would cost us to go raw. He's small, only 19 lbs (and not likely to get bigger).

So, if I would take his weight at 20 lbs times 3%, he would get 9.6 oz a day? That's a lot less than what he gets of kibbles. Would that satisfy him?? I estimated buying meat at $.87 lb (Sam's club) and giving him 10 oz a day. That came out to $15 month, not much more than the $10.75. I'll have to talk to my DH about this, as I JUST bought another 35 lb bag, but haven't opened it yet. Thanks for your help. I may have more questions. Some of it was quite confusing!

What breed is he? A combination of mixed breeds he could be a little bit bigger than 19 lbs. at ideal, mature weight. 25 lbs. wouldn’t surprise me once he fills out.

I get most of mine from Nashville Wholesale Meats – all restaurant grade food. I’m sure you have a restaurant supplier close to you and it’s worth the trip. I drive about 30 minutes each way and still it’s a savings.

I get rabbit from a local person who raises and butchers them specifically to only skin them for me. Other varieties of meat from various other sources locally except for green tripe, which I order online or get from local private processors.. (That’s only fed outside. Ugh! The smell! But great for dogs.) These people are easier to find than you think and often you get a greatly reduced price, if not part of it free. Hunters give me lungs, kidney, etc. free all the time. They hate waste but have no use for much of the organ meat and green tripe (unprocessed stomach and contents.)

At 25 lbs. (if that’s his ideal weight given breed and gender) given what I just purchased it would work out to be about $16.00 per month. At 19 lbs. it would be about $12.00 per month. Not much more than your commercial food without “coupons” and a whole lot healthier. (Nutro is not the worst, but not the best, either.) And that’s at 3% of his estimated adult body weight. If he’s not as active it would be a bit less. As he’s young, it shouldn’t be much less. They do burn it off.

At a year old I would guess he has a bit of growth and filling out to do.

NOTE: Also, you might find you have to feed less in the end, costing you less because you’re not feeding grains and fillers and all feed is digested. There is no waste as there is with grains that come with commercial food. Let's face it. It’s in their (financial) best interest that you must buy more of their Nutro. Not yours. Not your dog's. You could find yourself feeding 2% which would work out to $8-$10 per month.

It’s not an exact science as I said before, and each dog is different.

But it’s no more expensive and often cheaper to feed raw than it is to feed commercial. A 55 lb. bag of so-called quality kibble (fast food) would cost me over $55.00-$60.00 per month. Not to mention the vet bills as a result.

Yeppers. 9.6 oz. And that's at 3%. And then that's divided into 60% RMB's, 35% MM and 5% OM. Buy in 40 lb. boxes, weigh and package yourself and it costs a whole lot less than $15.00. And, you're only shopping about once every 2 - 4 months for him and packaging at the same time. In the long run, more convenient to take little packages out and thaw them, then dump them in the bowl, than buy 35 lbs. at a time and let it go rancid because of the oils, etc. It's a no-brainer.

Question away. It can be a bit confusing at first and my best friend was/is the digital kitchen scale.

And, if you're over by 1/2 ounce here, 1/4 ounce there, 1 ounce, 2 ounces here and there you can make it up and decrease on the next meals. Balance over time.

My layout of what I would feed him to follow. Give me a minute to work the numbers for you.

I also am not sure what you mean by MM RMB etc. Please explain that too. Thanks. Oh, we're not sure exactly what he is, but he's a terrier for sure. He has the hunting instinct and digging and runs a lot (fast little bugger!). Interestingly enough, we got him for free from an IL animal control shelter. The website said "German Shepherd mix". He's almost 14 mo and has been 19 lbs for several months! Put his pic on Dogster.com and people suggested Border Terrier. He does have a lot of energy.

Ok. Numbers worked.

For the RMB’s (Raw, Meaty Bones like chicken backs, necks, turkey necks) he’d be getting 2.88 oz. per meal.

For the MM (Muscle meat – no bones such as beef heart, green tripe etc.) he’d be getting 1.68 oz. per meal.

For the OM (Organ meat such as liver, kidney, lungs, etc.) it would be 0.24 oz. per meal.

So, 5.76 oz. per day RMB’s. 3.36 oz. per day of MM and 0.48 oz. of OM per day for a total of 9.6 approx. ounces per day.

Now, feeding can be done two ways. You can package it all up with each amount (RMB’s, MM and OM) in one bag, enough for two days, and then feed either all or portions with each meal, or you can package individually which is a lot more work and not necessary. I portion two day’s meals in one bag and thaw and feed from there. Guestimate after weighing into the bags and you’ll be fine. RMB’s one meal and MM/OM combo the next is common.

If you decide to feed a veggie mash on top of that you can just feed whatever comes out on the meat products. Or, you can package and feed separately but so much can be left in the bag that it’s almost wasteful. False economy, if you will.

At first they will look at you like, “Where’s the rest of it?” as the portions are smaller, but the crunching of the bones and the chewing often eliminate that attitude completely. It’s more crunching than the chewing of kibble or swallowing whole and doesn’t leave all the cereals on the teeth, either. In fact, it’s cleansing.

Zmail me if you want to call and chat about it all. It can be overwhelming at first. It doesn’t take long to get the hang or rhythm of.

One other thing....

As he is a little guy I would not go with pork neckbones and the like. Stick to the smaller chicken backs, necks, turkey necks as your RMB's.

You can add variety in the MM (Muscle meat) using beef, venison, pork, etc. or in a combination of rabbit meat and bone combo's, and variety in the OM(Organ meats such as beef, pork, lamb, rabbit, venison organs.)

If you have a good grinder you could grind the pork neckbones, etc., but it's not necessary. I did the grinding for puppies only years ago.

LOL! They all say German Shepherd Mix. Gripes me to this day. Then the German Shepherd gets the "bite history". Most don't know what they're talking about.

Yeppers. Looks like a little Terrier. Border or Cairn or JRT or Wire Hair JRT or Terrier cross is my guess. He's adorable! That baby is all Terrier. Love him!

I would say high energy.

Given breed and age I would start raw feeding at 3% of his ideal adult body weight. They're high activity and can burn up a lot of energy just around the house, much less outside. More bounce to the ounce, as they say. He'd burn up more inside than my German Shepherd. Each dog is different. Different needs.

If you see him gaining too much on the 3% decrease to 2% and go from there.

I'll z-mail you my phone number.

Gosh, he's so cute! Is this the snot dog that had the toy blockage inside and needed the surgery? I can see why you had a hard time keeping him quiet.

Yep, he's the one and only! Tried to keep him quiet while he zoomed around the fire! He does burn alot of energy, even inside. If he doesn't get enough exercise outside, he will tear around the house (inside or out).

Hope that explains the RMB's, MM and OM for you. It's a simplified version but if you have any more questions, ask. RMB's are basically mostly bone with only a little meat, fat and/or skin such as backs, necks. The other two, MM (Muscle Meat) is meat without any bone (heart, roasts, etc.) and OM (Organ Meat) (liver, kidney, lungs, brains) are pretty self-explanatory. I do count chicken hearts as OM even though they are a "heart" and some consider it a "Muscle Meat". I do in large animals (beef, deer, sheep, etc.) but not in chickens or turkeys or rabbits. Then I consider it an OM.

I still laugh about that fire story with your little guy. He did want to be part of the party, didn't he? So what if he makes mom a wreck in the process.

More bounce to the ounce. The "indoor zoomies" do take them over at times. Lots of energy to burn. Need to meet the food requirements for it, I know. Given age and energy level and breed I'd say 3% minumum. Possibly 4% as he's so young and then decrease as he gets a bit older.

Gosh, he's made a great recovery, hasn't he?

Call me anytime. I'll be happy to help anytime. I z-mailed you back with the phone number.

You are always so helpful, Noeleen! The pet forum REALLY appreciates you.

This raw diet subject comes up from time to time but I must admit, I know nothing about it, really. Other than loving all animals whether they be covered with fur or scales I am woefully unqualified to host this forum but someone has to do it.

Can I ask a huge favor? I would love to have a permanent sticky at the top of the Pet Forum regarding the raw diet. It is, after all is said and done, the Pet Food & Treats forum! It isn't all just about us posting pictures of our furry/scaly pet babies. (But that is the fun part!)

I can do a cut and paste job using your quotes in this thread and post it as a new informational post to be stickied. Of course, I will you give you full credit for the info.

Or if you want to author something yourself in your own words about the raw diet you can post it as a new thread and I will sticky it at the top for permanent Pet Forum reference.

I'm not trying to get you to do my work but you are much more knowledgeable about the subject than I am.

And your grammar is much gooder than mine is, two.

Wow, Potsi, thank you.

I'll be happy to write it up today and post it up for you to sticky on the subject, including some links that some people found helpful in the past, too. (I'll dig them up today. )

You (and our other hosts) do a fine job hosting this forum and I don't mind helping out or sharing my bit of knowledge on the subject at all. I hope it does help.

Noeleen